Star Talk ☆ Let's Hang - All Are Welcome!!

[galled]

chobi I want to tell you how much I enjoy exchanging ideas with someone so intelligent and thoughtful! Thank you!

I'm going to stick my replies in a spoiler if they get long.

[+] SPOILER

I do not believe that there is a gene that makes us want more. We have systems to tell us that we need more air, water, food, things that we need to consume in order to survive. I do not believe that there's a gene that tells us that we need to rule the world or be on top of the masses or want to have an expensive and luxurious life style.

I refer to genetics and not a particular gene because people are born a certain way. Consider how identical twins can be born and within a short period of time (hours) one can be identified as outgoing and there meek. This is not the environment.

Next consider how a small child will eat themselves ills if given unlimited candy. This is not environmental or taught. It must be how we are born.

Now consider how some people are more disposed to be susceptible to addiction. People will do drugs until they kill themselves. They are drawn to it. Just like sex and power have great influence over the minds of some. Is this learned behavior, environmental or genetic. I say mostly genetic (predisposition for the extreme cases, but we all have the tendency towards reward), but also environmental with a little learned behavior thrown in.

I also have reason to suspect that it is human behavior that allows some genes to awaken and others to degrade. Human body is very adaptive and it's the fact that we really do not know how a big part of it works that we fail to destroy it easily sometimes. And when I say easily I mean by abusing it for the most part of our lives.

Agreed, but the genetics are either there or they're not. No one (at least yet, but very soon is my guess) has been able to add genes to humans that did not already exist.

Most of the things that drive us towards greed and lust for power are illusions created by mankind itself.

I have a different perspective. I think the basis for these things to work are already there within us (the genetic disposition), and nearly everyone from advertisers to politicians have learned the skills to manipulate people, all in the pursuit of getting people to do things they want (with helps them obtain the things the perpetrators desire -- money, power, etc..).

Those things can be seen through and issues that come with them could be avoided.

The biggest enemy that we face with this kind of problem is not the masses but ourselves and the fact that we have to bring this fight with our own self to everyone in this world is the biggest obstacle that we are facing.

Thus the solution is to help people reach deep within their own selves and guide them to follow one of the paths that leads to similar outcome.

I used to work for the largest computer game company in the world. There were Phds in psychiatry, psychology, human behavior, sociology, economics, etc., on staff--all plotting (my term) to create games that were addictive. Advertisers and companies that sell other thing all have similar assets. Pit that against a developing teenage mind, uneducated or even mildly educated population and there's no contest.

Could we use this power for good, for people to want less? Absolutely, but these companies (and companies are people) want more.

An answer would be to force the world into this direction with unrivaled power and strict dictate for long years and that would be close to impossible too not only because there is no such a power, but also because people die (as soon as the people holding the power die and change maybe a few times, everything would be wasted) and because the people who love to abuse the power are good at hiding within the circles of power and going with the flow while still getting the best for themselves until the flow changes direction.

There are people trying to educate the masses but their words are wasted as well because people don't listen or even if they listen, they often abuse the teachings, ignore them because of the cases of abuse or simply do not understand them.

I've often thought about how much humanity could gain if we could program some basics, education, morality, life experiences into a new born. I mean each child is born knowing nothing and starts from scratch. Each generation almost starting from scratch, and although there is a lot to be learned from history and advice of those who have lived it, we all tend to ignore such treasures. But what if we could equip each newborn with the basics (think of it as a base operating system). They wouldn't have to learn the basics of math etc., and most of the time spent on education could be dedicated towards other, perhaps more noble pursuits.

Of course this could be abused and a huge disaster if not the end of all we know and hold dear would result.
So some would equate this to brainwashing, but I suppose one man's brainwashing is another one's next step towards utopia.

Since young age I lost all will to achieve anything in this world because it's wasted.

That's sad to hear. You can achieve great things. A single person is not powerless. Sometimes it's a matter of finding their passion, other times it's a matter of finding something they do have control or influence over.

The only thing that I'll have the hope to make the difference is eventually the thesis that as the solar system entered a different photon belt in the universe (around 2011) and we are under the influence of different radiations and energies from outer space, people might awaken a higher consciousness and eventually build the numbers towards the critical point that will topple the masses and change the norm...

Other then that, I gave up on this world and would just like to live the rest of my life in peace separated by stupid power struggles and races towards illusory goals that grant no real satisfaction.

It's good to have hope, and I can't discount cosmic forces influencing things here on earth, but I'm not one to let things just happen to me or those I love and care about. I believe in chaos theory--that things go to disorder unless forces are applied to keep things in order. I will fight if need be to keep chaos outside of my sphere of influence.

I can never understand, and I don't direct this at you, how someone will do nothing, then complain that stuff happens to them when a little bit of effort early on would have solved the problem. Instead they do nothing/ignore it and it becomes a huge problem and they complain. I've seen this in a number of currently young people and my only explanation I can come up with is the idea of delayed satisfaction is lost on them and they can only think about the present. This is another one of those inbred genetic tendencies we see in nature IMHO. It's like an immature mind (like the kids who will eat candy until they're sick). Can you add some insights? I am truely curious.

Thanks!

[mdom]

/cries for all greek artifacts in the UK, too

[Kyndreth]

Uwaah... that's quite a read. Galled worked in a game company?

[chobi]

chobi I want to tell you how much I enjoy exchanging ideas with someone so intelligent and thoughtful! Thank you!

I'm also happy to discuss ideas and world views. I'm sorry that I won't have the actual time to reply to all of the things you said right now, but an update will be coming in around 14-16 hours or so xD.

[Kyndreth]

Yuuup, work first~

[mdom]

oh no, galled hates me
I'm totes one of those kids that eats candy until get sick. Except I'm an adult.

[Kyndreth]

Eeeey me too~

Candy eating buddies~

[Lemon Cheesecake]

I only eat a lot of the candy that I really like.

[Kyndreth]

Mmm... I eat when bored so...

[galled]

oh no, galled hates me
I'm totes one of those kids that eats candy until get sick. Except I'm an adult.

No I don't hate anyone!

But that's a good example of what I'm talking about. You we're just born with that desire (after 100's of thousands of years we've evolved to this), so don't feel bad about it! It's who we are.

[Kyndreth]

I dunno... you naturally want what makes you happy. SO idk..

[galled]

Yes. Even if it's bad for you, or may hurt you. Whether it hurts others is a secondary thought and sadly one that isn't even a real consideration at some point and may never be one for others because that self interest is so strong and inbred in our genetics. It's a constant fight that some handle better than others, but it's always there.

Yes. Actually I directed a division within the company.

[Kyndreth]

Ehhh, it depends on the person too, I'd say.

[chobi]

Alright galled time for my reply! So once again, I am also really happy that we can discuss things like that and explore our worlds while at it!

[+] SPOILER

I do not believe that there is a gene that makes us want more. We have systems to tell us that we need more air, water, food, things that we need to consume in order to survive. I do not believe that there's a gene that tells us that we need to rule the world or be on top of the masses or want to have an expensive and luxurious life style.

I refer to genetics and not a particular gene because people are born a certain way. Consider how identical twins can be born and within a short period of time (hours) one can be identified as outgoing and there meek. This is not the environment.

Next consider how a small child will eat themselves ills if given unlimited candy. This is not environmental or taught. It must be how we are born.

Now consider how some people are more disposed to be susceptible to addiction. People will do drugs until they kill themselves. They are drawn to it. Just like sex and power have great influence over the minds of some. Is this learned behavior, environmental or genetic. I say mostly genetic (predisposition for the extreme cases, but we all have the tendency towards reward), but also environmental with a little learned behavior thrown in.

People are born a certain way, but they are not born destined to be addicts. Desire, greed, wrath, lust, envy and all sings are natural to our kind, but in my opinion, it's not genetic structure that makes us want more, it's subconscious illusion that is created based on what you see, hear, smell, taste, interact with in general and the way you perceive the world.

You gave an example of children eating candy or chocolate and how they'll eat themselves until they get sick without stopping. Isn't that chemical reaction based on the sugar in the candy? Sugar rush, the energy, sweetness makes our bodies feel good and our brain to produce hormones that makes us happy? Even more sexually active with certain foods? So while we consume those, we ourselves are under the influence and our bodies want more because the food we eat stimulate production of happiness and so on. This is part of our bodies functions, but it's not the genetic hunger and primal reaction to starvation that would make us eat anything because our body needs it. It's being spoiled is what I'd say.

Addictions are hard demons to fight and I think that is because people see the demon in the substance rather in their own selves. People try to fight the tools but not the things that pull the trigger. People do drugs and go tragically overboard in their thrust to escape reality and to feel good. Isn't that just imbalanced life deprived of affection or sometimes deprived from challenge? Either left alone and hated by all, or left alone and isolated in our own comfort zone where nothing excites us, isn't that the true cause for all those who push themselves under the influence of drugs, alcohol or other self-destructive tendencies? No purpose, no teachings, no way to live a life in balance. So if we are surrounded by what we needed wouldn't we never turn to those things in the first place?

I know people who've used all sorts of drugs a few times to try them, but never got addicted to them. I've seen some who tried once and ruined their lives because of their internal demons.

I also have reason to suspect that it is human behavior that allows some genes to awaken and others to degrade. Human body is very adaptive and it's the fact that we really do not know how a big part of it works that we fail to destroy it easily sometimes. And when I say easily I mean by abusing it for the most part of our lives.

Agreed, but the genetics are either there or they're not. No one (at least yet, but very soon is my guess) has been able to add genes to humans that did not already exist.

Mmm, here's what I googled about genes; "Genes are composed of DNA, and it is predicted that there are over 3 billion basepairs in the human genome." As far as I understand, most of the DNA in our bodies is inactive and labeled as junk because it does nothing most of the time. But if it activates it would likely start performing some sort of function that would show difference in our behavior or organism. With so much possibilities that we already have in our bodies, do we need to try to add more?

Here is the difference in genes that I'm most interested in between different people because of the fact that I do not sleep much so I wanna know what I'm in for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRX8wlrauLI

Here's also something interesting I just saw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tcEgqTWbxQ

Most of the things that drive us towards greed and lust for power are illusions created by mankind itself.

I have a different perspective. I think the basis for these things to work are already there within us (the genetic disposition), and nearly everyone from advertisers to politicians have learned the skills to manipulate people, all in the pursuit of getting people to do things they want (with helps them obtain the things the perpetrators desire -- money, power, etc..).

Ok, so we have scenes where we'd see others want what they don't have and what they can't have unless they hurt others. You say that because people are genetically conditioned to be greedy, they'd do anything to get it, or something like that.

And then again, we have people who'd sacrifice their own desires, their own possessions just so others would have more? So those people don't have those genes? So what about the people who's parents were greedy fucks who killed and did everything they wanted, but they themselves can't put themselves to do that? If they are born from their parents, they should have the same genes. so how can there be difference in behavior?

In my opinion, the way the masses get manipulated easily is way more complex and I've gained this conclusion by again zooming out to see ourselves as a part of a bigger system where people's behavior influences on everyone. I won't go into too much details, but lets say that it has to do with most of the people do not understanding the consequences of their actions and only looking at small scale of the world they are in, while others look at bigger picture and seeing how they can abuse a the way the masses move so they can harness gain in a natural way, similar to how if we put a wheel on a running river, we can harness the movement into power to use.

Essentially the issue is in both sides, the ones who do not look at greater picture to see how they can be abused and in the ones who abuses the others and it's split between the different sides with different proportions depending on different cases.

Those things can be seen through and issues that come with them could be avoided.

The biggest enemy that we face with this kind of problem is not the masses but ourselves and the fact that we have to bring this fight with our own self to everyone in this world is the biggest obstacle that we are facing.

Thus the solution is to help people reach deep within their own selves and guide them to follow one of the paths that leads to similar outcome.

I used to work for the largest computer game company in the world. There were Phds in psychiatry, psychology, human behavior, sociology, economics, etc., on staff--all plotting (my term) to create games that were addictive. Advertisers and companies that sell other thing all have similar assets. Pit that against a developing teenage mind, uneducated or even mildly educated population and there's no contest.

Could we use this power for good, for people to want less? Absolutely, but these companies (and companies are people) want more.

An answer would be to force the world into this direction with unrivaled power and strict dictate for long years and that would be close to impossible too not only because there is no such a power, but also because people die (as soon as the people holding the power die and change maybe a few times, everything would be wasted) and because the people who love to abuse the power are good at hiding within the circles of power and going with the flow while still getting the best for themselves until the flow changes direction.

There are people trying to educate the masses but their words are wasted as well because people don't listen or even if they listen, they often abuse the teachings, ignore them because of the cases of abuse or simply do not understand them.

I've often thought about how much humanity could gain if we could program some basics, education, morality, life experiences into a new born. I mean each child is born knowing nothing and starts from scratch. Each generation almost starting from scratch, and although there is a lot to be learned from history and advice of those who have lived it, we all tend to ignore such treasures. But what if we could equip each newborn with the basics (think of it as a base operating system). They wouldn't have to learn the basics of math etc., and most of the time spent on education could be dedicated towards other, perhaps more noble pursuits.

Of course this could be abused and a huge disaster if not the end of all we know and hold dear would result.
So some would equate this to brainwashing, but I suppose one man's brainwashing is another one's next step towards utopia.

Since young age I lost all will to achieve anything in this world because it's wasted.

That's sad to hear. You can achieve great things. A single person is not powerless. Sometimes it's a matter of finding their passion, other times it's a matter of finding something they do have control or influence over.

I can achieve great things, but I don't want to. The moment I achieve something that can be labeled as great I would be brought into a shiny spotlight and be shown as part of a person that's placed on (or close to) the top of this big pile of shit I call the world of man.

I do not want to be apart of it. I do not want to be placed on pedestals. I do not need the recognition of the masses so much although I'd appreciate it if I can have a bunch of friends that would recognize my efforts or just appreciate me for who I am.

I very selfishly do what I do and I just want to spent the rest of my life separated from this bullshits.

The only thing that I'll have the hope to make the difference is eventually the thesis that as the solar system entered a different photon belt in the universe (around 2011) and we are under the influence of different radiations and energies from outer space, people might awaken a higher consciousness and eventually build the numbers towards the critical point that will topple the masses and change the norm...

Other then that, I gave up on this world and would just like to live the rest of my life in peace separated by stupid power struggles and races towards illusory goals that grant no real satisfaction.

It's good to have hope, and I can't discount cosmic forces influencing things here on earth, but I'm not one to let things just happen to me or those I love and care about. I believe in chaos theory--that things go to disorder unless forces are applied to keep things in order. I will fight if need be to keep chaos outside of my sphere of influence.

I can never understand, and I don't direct this at you, how someone will do nothing, then complain that stuff happens to them when a little bit of effort early on would have solved the problem. Instead they do nothing/ignore it and it becomes a huge problem and they complain. I've seen this in a number of currently young people and my only explanation I can come up with is the idea of delayed satisfaction is lost on them and they can only think about the present. This is another one of those inbred genetic tendencies we see in nature IMHO. It's like an immature mind (like the kids who will eat candy until they're sick). Can you add some insights? I am truly curious.

Thanks!

And here is how it goes:

Exibit A, has his own life, own problems, own issues to deal with and life is overwhelming.
Exibit A, says that the problems of the drowning are problems of the drowning themselves.
Exibit A do not try to do things for people they don't know, try not to do more in their job, do not try to put extra effort in a lot of the things they do.
Exibit A behaves this way, because they want to focus their time and efforts on people they care about and themselves.[/quote]

This makes their life easier because they do not put other people's misery and problems at heart and they feel better. They'd keep telling this kinda things like this to themselves because that's part of how they detach themselves from their connection to the system (world, life etc.) until they get hurt and they need help.

There are ofc a lot more reasons for that and here are some of the biggest ones called "Path of least resistance", "The Pareto principle" that is also related to a graph known as "Zipf law". First two links are to Wiki articles and the second is a nice video by Vsauce that talks about all 3 of these things and I recommend it.

[mdom]

Haha that reminds me of my dad saying 'Japanese people are prone to addiction' |D